Brian McLaren attempts intelligent dialog with secular left; secular left responds with snarky insults December 4, 2007
Posted by Zack in Missouri , trackback
Please check out Brian McLaren’s post at TPM Cafe (an influential progressive politics blog) and the long, mostly hostile and insulting, comment thread that follows.
The comments are a particular rich and diverse example of anti-Christian feelings that are common on the secular left. I’ve been mulling over something like a “way to agree to disagree” that Christian, secular and other faiths’ contingents of the left could use as a basis for friendly and peaceful collaboration. This has spurred me on in that direction—I’ll see what I can come up with.
Tags: Brian McLaren, Secular Left
Comments»
Ok so I only had time to read about halfway down to see that these comments to me are not that bad. I have a very Christian girlfriend and I am an atheist, and we have discussions like this all the time and I am constantly being told I’m anti-Christian. I could care less, but people make it an issue. It’s hard to discuss something that is so important in your life without getting pissed off. Good luck trying to come up with something that could help. I personally like the FSM, but a lot of people look at that as an insult also.
Here are some comment samples from the first ten comments or so.
“Brian McLaren-Congratulations on your post and your book. I will read it!”
“You wrote an excellent column, and I wish you luck in your quest to persuade Christians who have strayed from the original Leader’s teachings to take up with false prophets.”
“On the other hand, if there are Christians, or atheists for that matter, that want to do good work by helping the poor and the lame, by protecting the environment, and wish to improve the lives of the public in an altruistic way, I’m with them.”
“I do find this an exciting & optimistic topic. It is indeed time for some sort of reform to occur. I’d seriously like to read this book and I look forward to reading the conversation that will likely unfold here! While I’m not a religious man myself I do read about religion often. Unfortunately it’s far too often been more like watching a car accident than not. So this may offer some fresh air for me as well! ;-)”
“Congratulations on your book and I hope it does well. I am afraid, however, that the people who NEED to read it, will not. It is as it ever is and was.”
I hate it when you insult people needlessly for stuff you assume they did but which in fact they did not do. Also, what is your evidence that TPM readers are not religious?
I have seen little evidence of secular people christian-bashing in that thread. there were one or two disrespectful comments, but overall the reaction was pretty positive.
as an atheist who is strongly supportive of the progressive christian movement I would urge you to take another look at your position regarding the secular left, lest you allow bitter feelings or pre-judgments to prevent you from having a meaningful dialogue or from building ties with those who don’t share your faith. just as “not all christians are right-wing nut-jobs”, not all atheists are jerks. the comments here tell me that some people have been insulted by your take on things, so I think a bit of soul-searching might be in order.
as for a way for people to “agree to disagree”, I am on it too. it seems direly needed at this stage. perhaps you and I should consider having some discussions on this, because it appears we are coming at it from “opposite” sides, yet we share the same goals and feelings on the issues. I’ve been following what you and elizabeth are doing, and I think it’s great work. it would be nice if we could crack the problem of how to get atheists and christians to work together amicably.
Zack, to be honest, where you saw snarky insults I saw legitimate issues being raised. Where you saw hostility I saw frustration. As a liberal Episcopalian, I have some of the same issues with the Christian Right that the commenters to Brian’s post brought up. It’s time for evangelicals to let go of the culture wars.
I don’t know, MD, looks like a wintery mix to me, but not as bad as I thought it would be after reading Zach’s post. But I think Zach’s point in the TPM comments is sound in calling for more constructive comments to encourage those engaging in the building bridge between evangelicals and secularists on the left for our common goals. I happen to have some experience in this…and it’s exhausting. I’m excited to read about McLaren’s book and hope to pick it up, soon.
“But I think Zach’s point in the TPM comments is sound in calling for more constructive comments to encourage those engaging in the building bridge between evangelicals and secularists on the left for our common goals.”
This will never happen. The gap is just too large between the two groups. The concepts of having faith or some things being sacred is the cornerstone of religion. It is also the antithesis of secularism.
Let’s use Zack’s post as an example. Valid criticism are seen as hostile attacks merely because the subject is considered sacred. We can’t even say, “Let’s agree to disagree.” because either one side is forced to suffer in silence or the other side is censored it what it can talk about.
There were positive and negative comments after Mclaren’s post. It’s interesting that many of the comments here show a secularist victimization complex: “Oh no–if you’re offended by my critical comments, it’s just because you can’t handle the truth! You insist on being irrational, and then expect us beleaguered Truth-Seekers to play along with your dangerous delusions! We secularists are such a victimized minority! Waaaaaaaaaaaagh!” As if the Evangelical Christiam victimization complex weren’t annoying enough.
I think what this teaches is that progressive Christians should stop running after our secular allies, begging them to accept us at hte table. Let’s just build a new table. And then we can agree to disagree–but we will set our terms of negotiation, instead of pitifully asking permission all the time, “Please, can we follow Jesus in the public sphere? We promise to behave!”. I find that my secular friends disapprove of most of the Christian-influenced proposals I tell them about, but they like the outcomes when I implement them. So why not just stop asking permission? Secular folks will learn to trust Christians if we just go ahead and do good works. Until they see the fruit, we shouldn’t expect them to trust us. And if we don’t ask for their resources or their permission, then it’s fine if they want to complain about it on some website. Christian Progressives should opt out of those stupid debates, and spend our time out-organizing the secularists in the real world, so that by the time they figure out what’s going on, most progressive organizations are run by Christian-friendly people.
Somewhere between the evangelicals and the “secular left” (I dislike that term) are the progressive Protestants from the older mainstream denominations — Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal (me), and Congregational/UCC. Perhaps we can be a bridge between evangelicals and the “secular left.” Frankly the left side of the bridge is already built and has been there for many years, which is why, as Lydia observed, most progressive organizations are Christian-friendly at least toward the mainstream Protestants because we’ve been their allies for so long. What remains is the right side of the bridge, and to start building that, evangelicals need to gain the trust of their left-leaning Protestant brethren.
OK — I learned my lesson. Don’t comment about a comment thread. For one thing, since I wrote there have been a lot more comments and the level of the discussion over there has gone way up. That’s really good to see.
Also, I think this is another reason the comment thread was so disappointing to me, but didn’t seem that bad to others at the time that I wrote:
In it, I saw so many of the stereotypes and misconceptions that rule out a productive collaboration between these two cultures that my life is now split between. So, I acknowledge that I was wrong to say the thread was mostly hostile and insulting. I should have said that it had examples of the barriers that stand between these two progressive movements.
For example:
“The first religious transformation I’d like to see in terms of politics would be for Christians (and other religions too) to say: ‘I will not seek to impose my religion on nonbelievers.’ That’s where the conversation has to start.”
Is that really how to start a conversation? In response to Jerry Falwell, that would make sense—but not to Brian McLaren. What a way to greet the progressive evangelical movement, a movement that is totally opposed to imposing anything on anyone!
“I am afraid, however, that the people who NEED to read it, will not. It is as it ever is and was. I have been so ashamed of the “Christian” church that I no longer even bother calling myself a Christian. If ever I believed, the hatred and punishment that the church has either condoned or tolerated in recent years has been enough to dissuade me from ever returning.
And you say that there is an answer. I say there is not. It is that simple. Will the churches serve their mission and stop the hatred of those who are different? Will the churches stop their condoning of wars against others? When it says in the Bible that Jesus, when asked how many times he should forgive his enemies, replied 70 time 7. I guess the church no longer believes that one, right? And when it says in the Bible that if one of God’s children was hungry and you did not help him, you have sinned against God: well, I guess they don’t believe that one either.
No, the Christian church is a sham and hoax and not for the reasons that everyone assumes. Even if the basis for the religion is false, the beliefs as good. But when the beliefs are false as well - then there nothing of value worth saving and it should die.”
What if Stoller went and wrote on a Christian blog and someone said, “Stalin killed millions, and therefore I will never have faith in anything that has to do with the left.” You can write off a person, a company or an organization for past misdeeds, but not something as big as The Left, or Christianity.
“Yesterday (12/2) I saw a local (mpls, MN) televangelist broadcast. Early in the broadcast, the televangelist brought several police officers onto the stage, each with a police dog that the congregation had paid for. They were for chasing down the ‘bad guys.’ The congregation cheered.”
Again, imagine if Stoller reached out on a Christian blog and the response was, “Well, I saw these really annoying and angry people speaking at an anti-war rally…”
What is it, considering the heinous acts — all justified by ‘Christianity’ — makes you able to stay with it? This is a serious question…Morality clearly has NOTHING to do with religion, and in fact, most religions discourage thought on the subject. You strike me as someone who has thought about these things. Do you just say, ‘Well, my religion right or wrong’, and do you really swallow this stuff about eternal hell-fire for everyone who doesn’t say they are on your side?”
To use the Stoller hypothetical once again, the equivalent of this response would be: “Considering all the heinous acts of the Left over the years, why would you stay with it? The Left clearly has nothing to do with improving the world and only wants to discourage thought. And what about all that stuff about wanting to destroy the nuclear family?”
“Catholic priests have been outed by name, rightfully so. You should take a page from Bob Somerby’s book and use names….names of the Evangelicals who back unjust wars; John Hagee, the late Jerry Falwell, etc. ? Prosperity Preachers like Benny Hinn, Randy and Paula White, Creflo Dollar, etc.? If the cretins who worked themselves into high profile positions in the Evangelical community and who use their influence to support issues harmful to their flock aren’t outed for what they are, they will continue being cretins.”
This represents a great gulf in these two cultures. On the “secular left” attacking internal movement opponents directly and by name can work. But among evangelicals it backfires. McLaren and others are sucking the wind out of those folks’ sails in the most effective way possible doing what they’re doing: teaching a different theology in a very pointed way. Their audience knows the implications.
“There’s a systemic problem with Christianity — and other religions — that yields it vulnerable to ‘injustice, greed, war-mongering, environmental plundering, vilification, cold-heartedness, racism, bigotry, violence, torture, and fear.’ That’s faith by appeals to authority. All to often, authentic learning ends where faith begins.”
Reading all these over, I see how much I messed up by saying that they were insults. That one, for example, isn’t an insult — it’s just a baseless stereotype. The vast majority of Christian communities in America are not based on authority of anyone. Don’t confuse the televangelist with American Christianity.
OK — but there were many that were just plain hostile too:
“I think it is too late for this effort to clean up the current crop of religions. It is time to scrap the idiocies that come from the desert religions completely, and do like most of us do - sleep in on Sunday mornings…”
“So much of modern-day Christianity is shot through with hypocrisy, corruption, insincerity and lies. You don’t need to believe in a deity in order to be a good person. What’s more, deities in general don’t really care, in the end, if you’re a good person. What they demand is your unquestioning worship.”
“They have been brainwashed to distrust anyone other than their own ilk.”
“Jesus Christ! Am I the only one who sees this agenda? These people have not been converted to the progressive agenda. They are just shifting their philosophy to convert us.”
“Go to church on Sunday if you like. Hell, go to church at night if you prefer. But if you’re an elected official or serve in the public sector, then you ought to take your religion and stuff it.”
But like I said, those hostile comments are not really representative of the full discussion that’s unfolded over there as of now.
well, first off there’s nothing in most of those statements to reveal the writers religious views, so calling them all the “secular left” is a bit of a leap.
but zack, by writing off these viewpoints as “stereotypes” and getting angry and insulted, you are completely dismissing the concerns of these people. whether you like it or not, these statements represent what some people feel/fear, secular or otherwise. what makes their concerns so completely illegitimate to you? as long as you see them so, there can be no discussion, no bridges, and no collaboration.
not everyone has had the experiences that you have with christianity and not everyone has met the wonderful people you have. many people have been victimized by christianity (whatever brand they were exposed to), and have developed a mistrust of it as a result. and not just on a personal level, either - on a political level. homosexuals being an excellent example of this. and the religious right has done an excellent job of convincing people that the bible says homosexuality is wrong, that the bible says that abortion is wrong, etc etc. (which it doesn’t) so for many people, when they see someone holding a bible they cringe.
I think maybe there needs to be some education, and some good pr before progressive christians can expect these people to trust them and differentiate them from the religious right. we can’t underestimate the damage done by the religious right and just stamp our feet when people misunderstand or are skeptical of the movement.
What if Stoller went and wrote on a Christian blog and someone said, “Stalin killed millions, and therefore I will never have faith in anything that has to do with the left.”
this and worse is said of atheists on a regular basis. atheists are the most hated minority group in america.
the obvious flaw in that and other similar arguments is that those leaders didn’t kill in the name of atheism, they killed in the name of whatever doctrine they were pushing, just as many religions have done in the past. atheism - contrary to what many people these days like to say - is not a belief, it’s a lack of belief. atheists really only share that lack of belief in common, so it’s highly unlikely you will ever see them all marching together for one cause. of course, some of them may adopt a doctrine and march for that cause, but the cause ceases to be atheism and becomes whatever the doctrine is.
it seems to me that perhaps the best way for us to all band together - secular and religious - and work toward a common goal, is to focus on what we all share: a concern for the environment, a concern for social justice, a concern for human rights. why do we even need to bring faith or lack of faith into it at all? aren’t the causes important enough that we should just do what we can to fight for change, regardless of WHY we are doing it? it seems to me that everyone is fighting over personal beliefs while people starve, while people die, while the planet dies. it just strikes me as really decadent to even have this conversation, in a way. why don’t we just get things done?
I agree, let’s just roll up our sleeves and get things done together. There’s only one problem: ideological secularists are keeping Christian progressives from building the bridges we need to build to get those things done. We’re trying to move on from the culture wars, but ironically, it’s the militantly secular folks who are the ones who refuse to bury the hatchet. I know people have been hurt by churches in various ways, and I know that atheists are unfairly demonized, but I don’t think a lot of these folks WANT to move on. They’re too caught up with their own secularist victimization complex, just like a lot of American Evangelicals are caught up with their Christian victimization complex.
If my secular allies will promise to stop making unecessary snarky comments about Christians all the time, I promise to stop making snarky comments about atheists all hte time. Oh wait, I never make snarky comments about atheists…that would be hopelessly tacky, disrespectful to my atheist friends, and no one in the progressive world would tolerate it. If only progressive activists were so thoughtful when making snarky comments around Christians, and then acting indignant when as a Christian, I object. So, that leaves the ball in your court, folks!
[…] (h/t to Zach Exley at Revolution in Jesusland) […]
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